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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 20 post(s) |
Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.01 16:33:24 -
[1] - Quote
I think there isn't enough counterplay still. I would like the links to be a Hic style bubble with a short cycle (5 seconds maybe) so that neuting can be a possibility. Use scripts instead of fuel
Maybe sensor damps could have a script that reduces boost range also |
Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1714
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Posted - 2016.09.01 17:17:30 -
[2] - Quote
Killing the booster is often not an option due to how much tank they can get, plus they are almost always on a logistics watchlist |
Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.04 00:19:28 -
[3] - Quote
I love this vocal minority of enraged miners.
CCP have devised a way for some ships to actually be a valid target when being used for their intended purpose THE HORROR. |
Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.08 02:02:03 -
[4] - Quote
Rin Aiko wrote:I wish boosts were removed altogether. Sad that folks feel that they can't participate in gameplay without them.
In wormhole warfare do to limited mass you can take through wormholes boosts are often the deciding factor when going balls deep into a fleet you know can bring reinforcements |
Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.11 15:59:38 -
[5] - Quote
Interesting, faction and t2 burst charges that provide a larger radius or higher strength.
Well played |
Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.11 16:21:09 -
[6] - Quote
Also in b4 mining nerds crying about having to reload every 5 hours |
Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.13 09:10:42 -
[7] - Quote
Ginger Naari wrote:Come November a guy with say 3 accounts and enjoys the indy side will have a ***** of a choice to make, keep running with an Orca and 2 miners, or use one as a defence for the booster, which cuts his mining income by 50% instantly.
Do we risk the booster like CCP obviously want us to do, or do we forget the boosts and put out a third miner with a shared can to pick up the ore later?
Whichever way you look at it, it's 2 bad choices to pick between.
God forbid you have to defend your operation in a pvp game
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.13 16:06:30 -
[8] - Quote
Laurens Punani wrote:Thank you! You are not wrong in what you are saying in this post, but you were wrong when you said "This is th best time to be a miner!"
my point is, that mining boosts are the only boosts that favor powerblocks a lot more than smaller entities (assuming you have to siege the rorq) , so mining suddenly gets a whole lot less profitable for at least 70% of the miners and it gets even worse for the poor newbros without friends in shiny capitals.
When i started playing eve, i came to the provi block and was shocked to see how much money i could make while recieving a boost from some random guy, somewhere in the system... i did not even know where that boost was coming from until i read about it on the internet:D
The new system makes it practically impossible for a new player to think "in one year, i want to sit in a Carrier, built with the minerals I found and not bought wir RL money!"
Those people would definitly go and rat and make 60-70 million per hour in a vexor navy issue without any risk of getting ganked while watching lokal and a complete return of investment after 90 minutes of flying in forsaken hubs...
This is the absolute worst time to be new to mining and the absolute best time to be a 30-account-miner in a big alliance.
Can we at least agree on my last sentence so i dont have to check this thread anymore? :D I only wanted fozzie to adress the indu-core, but i guess i will have to wait a few days before i can decide what to do with my mining alts...
Hate to break it to you but eve is not about equality.
If you can't afford to plex without rorqual boosts and you're too scared to actually risk one: tough ****, go do something else or work around it.
That's the essence of eve, innovation in the face of adversity.
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.13 16:54:30 -
[9] - Quote
Laurens Punani wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Hate to break it to you but eve is not about equality.
If you can't afford to plex without rorqual boosts and you're too scared to actually risk one: tough ****, go do something else or work around it.
That's the essence of eve, innovation in the face of adversity.
hate to break it to you, but this is not about me complaining about not having a rorqual boosts, this is about all the other people who wont have one and wont be able to plex their accounts with mining. I COULD get rorqual boosts and I WOULD field one if i felt like doing it was worth it... if not, i can still fly vexor navy issues on 3-4 accounts for 200 million isk/hour and drop 4 subscriptions... a workaround, but probably one that makes the game more boring for me and everyone who comes by, trying to get a nice killmail... so please give me more of your intelligent explanations of how this boosting system is going to bring more people into the industrial sector of eve :D:D:D:D gosh, sometimes people are so narrow minded -.-
Did I say that eve should not be equal for you?
No, stop with your overblown ego, not everything is about you.
All those faceless miners that you're white knighting for don't get equality as a privilege either ( though I doubt you're such a good person that you're fighting for them anyway)
If they can't plex without bringing a rorqual on grid either: tough **** for them too.
You realise that what you're trying to propose is that you want rorqual boosts to either be available to everyone (at no risk) or to no-one?
Do you realise this will have absolutely 0 (ZERO) effect on an average miners ability to plex? If everyone gets the same increase or reduction to their income, all you've done is shifted some numbers around and prices will shift to match.
If it's so hard to plex through the industrial sector of eve, that means that that particular part of the economy is saturated and therefore only people who literally drool on their keyboard would want to enter it.
You need less people, not more.
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.13 17:45:01 -
[10] - Quote
Laurens Punani wrote:you, my friend, are mistaken :D
every single one of us wants more paying customers.... i dont think i have to explain how more people make the game more interesting and more money gives ccp more possibilities to improve our experience even further.
right now it is possible for most people to plex an account while they are mining, mostly because they can mine just as much as the people in deep sov-null... they might have to get safe more oftern, and they might lose more ships, but still, mining is a feasable way of playing eve.
if one group of players can get much more reward for the same amount of work and even less risk, how do you think this is going to change? Big alliances get bigger, small ones get smaller and tiny groups of industrialists can **** off because they cant compete.
remove the yield/cycle time buff und the income will roughly stay the same... (you cant tell me more than 5% of the minerals on the market were mined without boosts :D)(big industrialists would still field rorquals, just because they dont want to move their ships while cycling an ore anomaly in nullsec)
+ finding a small group of miners with a small boosting ship sounds pretty nice for a roaming gang. only finding them deep in, lets say, PL space, kind of sucks, doesn't it?
We want more paying customers correct, we can agree on this point.
I don't want them to be mining though, we quite clearly already have a plentiful mineral supply and more stuff needs to blow up rather than mining surplus minerals causing industry to often come at a loss.
What do you think is more harmful for new industrialists, getting less ore than an established 1000 man alliance with super capital support or making a net profit of 1000 isk per item they produce?
It seems you don't understand what you've been told earlier. EVE IS NOT FAIR. Burn these words into your mind and recall them every time you decide to type something about one group of people being more privileged than the others.
That super coalition was not gifted sov and thousands of members by CCP, they had to work for it ( how much is up to debate but it's still work) and every advantage they have is earned through effort.
What the **** is the point of all of the above when some guy in some corner of npcs null in a covetor can make as much as someone in sovereign held space. It would be pointless to hold control over an area of space as that's the whole point of sovreignty: you control an area of space to take advantage of its resources.
I don't understand your last hypothetical situation either. How would you even get into deep PL space without already being blown up before you got anywhere near their miners? Wormholes come to mind but that's a different mechanic and you can bet your bottom dollar that if a rorqual is tackled it will have a cyno nearby and at least 4 supers and a Titan ready to jump to it
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.14 05:52:54 -
[11] - Quote
If serious, yes that's how eve is played
But in all liklihood, judging by your previous posts, you don't believe in any of that and you're one of those people who want instanced pvp arenas like AT
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.14 06:11:28 -
[12] - Quote
Nobody is stopping you from doing any of those things
The problem here is that you somehow want a solo player to be on equal terms with a group that's not how it works matey
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.14 06:25:42 -
[13] - Quote
Maybe if you only have 30 dollars to your name, figuring out how to plex should not be on the top of your list of priorities
Incursion boost: links allow You to fit less tank and more gank increasing your clear times by a significant amount
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.14 15:07:24 -
[14] - Quote
It seems you are suffering from two very common afflictions that shitposters are often affected by:
1. Selectis readingum
The inane ability to somehow pick out all the points at support ones own argument while somehow repeatedly ignoring counterpoints that harm the shitposters own.
2. Tunnelvisionitis
Common disease where the victim is fixated on one point of contention ignoring all context and criticisms
So we've told you how none of your methods will fix mineral prices, the only way mining can become more profitable at this point is either more **** gets blown up, or less people mining.
That's how basic supply and demand works, bringing everyone up or down to one level will just **** people off who have worked to generate the infrastructure needed to operate efficient mining fleets.
You've detailed how terrible mining is for a new player attempting it solo, so this is a great place to pivot and swing them over to do things that ARENT mining and may possibly cause mineral consumption.
Your point about how a solo account will have 0 profit if using a boosting ship. Who's thought process is so damaged that their first step in mining would be to get a boosting ship with only one account?
I also like how you've attached a tangible number to a 'big' alliance to make sure the 0.05 increase seems insignificant enough and when speaking about a 'small' alliance you completely avoid that. Also again, how will not having boosts reduce their income to 0?
Also I chuckled a little when you spoke about risk. What is a rorqual pilot 'risking' at the moment when boosting from inside a pos shield? Of course they will be much more inclined now to invite people to fleet because there literally is ZERO risk.
i like how you've also somehow inserted sp extraction as something relevant to mining. You might as well add that all 15 characters can all set up PI and rat in VNIs at the same time as well. OH MY GOD ALL THE ISK FROM SOMEONE PUTTING APPROPRIATE INVESTMENTS INTO GETTING IT, CCPLEASE NERF
Also you keep toting this 50% number, where are you getting this from? Sure rorqual boosts with industrial core might be less prevalent, but it's not like mining boosts are being removed completely. There will be other sources small corps and solo players can take advantage of.
Due to your selectis readingum you seem to have missed what I said about incursions being significantly better isk when organised around boosts. Wormhole PVE can also get significantly affected since it may be the difference between having to risk 1 more ship on field and not, or just better clear times due to the ability to fit less tank.
I know a really good doctor that can help you with both of your conditions, he specialises in extracting bullshit from people.
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.14 16:46:46 -
[15] - Quote
Laurens Punani wrote:Prices dont need fixing,never said that :D follow your own advices friend :)
at the moment mining is okay... cut the profit in half and its dogshit. how many people lose their ships while ratting? I dont see my mineral consumption rise if i decide to rat for a month or two instead of mining... not at all :D
dude... think, for once... " Who's thought process is so damaged that their first step in mining would be to get a boosting ship with only one account" all the people in NRDS-space with only 1 account can not continue mining if they want to make anything close to what they made as soon as the boosters are on grid. they wont have one --> they wont bother mining for no money at all --> they will do other things
-.- really? there is no risk for the booster right now, but i would consider 12 hulks (400 million each) and a frighter a pretty big investment. if a caracal warps into the anomaly the chances of killing 1 or 2 hulks before dieing are pretty good. there is (as of now) no protection but running away before they come into the anomaly. thats the risk while mining
You might do some pi stuff.. people do it, but you cant multibox 25 VNI... there arent enough anomalies to do that. otherwise you might be right. still, my point was, that other professions dont NEED multiboxing to be 6 times as efficient as solo mining. sorry if you misunderstood that.
IF MINING BOOSTS WERE REMOVED COMPLETLY THE INCOME WOULD NOT DROP; YOU SAID IT YOURSELF!!! lets take a look at the dev blog, shall we? right now, most of the people in NRDS-space are recieving full rorqual boosts. you already statet, that if everyone recieves boosts the income wont change since everyone gets more minerals.
-57.13%
That is the cycle time bonus from november on. Do the math and see, that with a boost you get 230% of what an unboost char gets. Considering that deep-sov null CAN provide those boosts the overall amount of ore mined wont change much... if it did not change at all a normal miner would drop down to 40-45% of his current income. Considering that the prices MIGHT go up i went the modest way and said those people would only lose 50% of their income. I left school quite some time ago, but i am still pretty sure the formula for things like these is x=1/(1-57,13) where x is the relative amount of ore mined by a boosted char and 1 is the amount of ore mined by an unboost char. correct me if i am wrong)
i read that... how much do you think is that? 10, maybe 20% ? those numbers sound fair! 130-150% ? thats just plain bullshit :D
im not reading this anymore. if you just want to attack me personally because you cannot deny that i am right i might as well assume
1. The whole point of your terrible ideas are about fixing mineral prices to make mining more attractive for new players. Just because you're too short sighted to summarise it in this way does not make it untrue.
2. If indeed these changes go through and we see a reduction in rorqual use because of the risk attached. How many people will just either
A: use an orca instead B: boost without the core
The yield will lower, only the large alliances who can afford to field and protect their rorquals will continue. Minerals will go up in price and the big alliances get a bigger cut of he pie BECAUSE THEY EARN IT
3. Again your ego is taking over, not everything is about you. If we see a general increase of VNIs then we will see an increase of VNIs being killed, making more demand for them and of course driving up the costs of minerals to build them, making mining more profitable. See where I'm going with this? People choosing not to mine is what's going to fix mineral prices, not your half baked ideas about how to remove mining boosts or give them to everyone.
4. So we've moved from a rorqual in a NRDS zone giving out free boosts to random people to a full on solo multi box operation of 12 hulks. Make up your mind please.
5. Other sources of income don't get more efficient with multi boxing? I'm sorry are we playing the same game? Some aspects of PVE are completely not doable unless you're multi boxing or running with a fleet. Try high class wormholes, smartbombing anoms and level 5 missions.
Mining is possibly one of the WORST scaling professions for multi boxing.
6. So you literally have no idea of how much mineral prices will shift and how much less ore will be mined and just throwing out random numbers that you feel are right.
Ok
6. Again just pulling numbers from absolute thin air. I'm not sure how much faster an incursion group will be with boosts and I'm not stupid or arrogant enough to slap a number on it, however what I do know is that pretty much every incursion fleet will run with links. It's that important.
You can stop reading what I'm writing, doesn't make it any less right and the people will see that.
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.15 09:47:21 -
[16] - Quote
You're actively contributing to the game while boosting on grid and a valid target, something that the rorqual never had to deal with.
I think the reward is appropriate to the risk
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.15 13:34:17 -
[17] - Quote
Resa Moon wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:You're actively contributing to the game while boosting on grid and a valid target, something that the rorqual never had to deal with.
I think the reward is appropriate to the risk In other words, you've become a valid target. The risk far outweighs the reward. Another troll for those who need more squishy targets.
The more rorquals that blow up the higher mineral prices will go
Them becoming valid targets actually helps miners
Powwwwww mind blown
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.15 16:20:18 -
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Like all you angry miners (some one needs to make a phone game for this or something) seem to think that all your problems will go away if you get more ore.
Do you know what your ore turns into? Like honestly think to yourself and REALLY dig deep. Don't worry I have time, don't strain yourself.
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.15 16:41:41 -
[19] - Quote
So you're unhappy about basic economy
Ok
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.16 01:51:56 -
[20] - Quote
Nasar Vyron wrote:Lets talk nullification and wormholes. Then we'll talk about being able to lock down a system or set of systems such that a 5 minute siege and response time becomes viable outside of your little world down in Provi. Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Yes it will be harder for small corps but thats not a bad thing. in a game built around working together numbers are everything. Nearly every patch since at least Phoebe CCP has been taking actions to favor small gang/groups within their game. This one directly hurts the solo/small group industrial crowd who were using these boosts for non-combat activities. Many cases introducing new players to the need to form groups and connections within EVE to accomplish greater things. Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I didn't say mine afk i said boost. Just because you have always gotten the reward of these large boosts does not mean you are entitled to them. The fact that they have existed in such a state for so long is the issue. Nobody with a sense of balance and fair play is complaining about the need to risk these assets. Just the imbalance between the reward and the risk involved. Grid wide boosts, return of hidden belts, as well as the removal of the siege effect from the industrial core would all work to balance out the added risk for these rewards. Another person put it best when comparing the static isk income of ratting to that of the indirect value obtained via mining. As well as the value of said assets put at risk to obtain it. This is another problem we should likely be discussing. Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:I also enjoy how you label me in ways to try and dismiss what i say as if it some how devalues it. if you must know i lead a new player alliance. in that alliance most people mine in either HS or NS based on the players comfort level with a bit of gas from WH. Nobody has to dismiss of devalue what you say. It already has such little value through your lack of experience and knowledge it handles that on it's own. While I applaud you in leading new players as I have done, you're own views when it comes to balance and fair play are misguided and skewed by your small view of the game. Not every group, even larger ones, have players willing to sit on their hands or keep a close range to mining fleets or bridge titans on the off chance they need help. In fact the larger the alliance the less a chance of getting a response fleet to save you. You possibly may see a response fleet form to kill them as they try to escape, but rescue? Not likely. The simple reason is this, responding to a threat already exists allows you to form proper numbers and ship types to handle the situation. Prior to being jumped on your standing defense fleet will only consist of those willing to do that - stand around, meaning the fleet that jumps on you may outnumber you from the get go. If your standing fleet is doing their own roaming to keep active then they are already dedicated to a ship type to respond with the limited window to save you and unlikely to pick up enough players in a proper composition to take on your attackers. This is why expecting response fleets for each mining operation is unreasonable and will never happen without proper reward for either party both standing fleet and miners (whose income is already far less than that of a casual ratter by player) PS- there's a reason I stopped posting a while back. You really aren't worth arguing with because you talk in circles and refuse to look at anything from any standpoint than your own. Try it some time, you might find people will hate you less.
God forbid there's a way past all your security cameras and gates with hundreds of bubbles anchored on them. That's another issue for another time though. Wormholes are hardly permanent either, they're also within your control to close. An interceptor fleet will also be caught by security cameras well before they reach anything they can tackle.
Evidence of these patches favouring smaller groups? Any Dev comments even stating That is the intention?
I keep seeing this risk/reward thing pop up a boosting rorqual costs around 2.5bil, it's not exactly a staggering amount of money and for the fleet size that CCP looks like the rorqual is intended for I would bet that they can make it back if one gets popped pretty easily.
If you feel that the risk involved is too much for you because you are a small Corp with no defence capabilities ( seems to be a common theme revolving around this whine) then there's other options like not using the core and keeping it aligned or just use an orca.
You can't compare isk from mining to ratting because ore price is determined by players and ratting bounties are static. If you're concerned about your isk from mining then something has to happen within the economy to stimulate that. Mining won't ever become more profitable without either something happening with the supply or demand and your incessant chatter about rorqual boosts can only hurt the supply by potentially over producing.
Plenty of null alliances have hundreds of station spinners and ping warriors, people literally just waiting around for content. Those that aren't doing nothing will be ratting or doing something nearby systems because let's face it: nullbears don't stray that far from their staging systems because it's dangerous.
With the advent of a ping of: help my rorqual is tackled. You can bet your bottom dollar you will get swarms of people logging in logging alts getting to jump bridges, Titans and readying capitals to jump to a cyno that any smart rorqual pilot should have fitted (even if you do not have a fleet waiting, I've seen people literally run away from an empty cyno before)
With the introduction of a proposed 5 minute invulnerability, you will have that plus the however million ehp a rorqual gets to get a fax on grid to deter most people.
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.16 06:54:02 -
[21] - Quote
Laurens Punani wrote:Could Lugh Crow-Slave and Tsukino Stareine please stop shitposting? :D
We get it, you dont understand our point ;)
Lets look at some scenarios:
Lets say i am an industrialist, i know my corp and alliance is online and i've got enough backup so i decide to field a rorqual, a frighter to empty the containers, 12 Hulks, each costing 420 million (including the fit) and a thanatos as a belttank. If: A solo-roamer comes into my belt -- I dont care, if he is too slow, my fighters will kill him -- If he has a bigger ship i activate the PANIC mode and wait for him to leave -->My carrier will most certainly be too much to chew on, so he will leave, if he brings in a super or more blops, we just bring bigger ships.
If: There is a known cloaky camper or a gang of hotdroppers around, a wh in some system close by -- I dont mine since risk/reward does not work out
Lets say i am a new player. I have started playing eve 2 months ago. I've can fly barges and two different t1 cruisers and a very nice corp in NRDS-Space has invited me to paly with them. I Like mining and i feel like i can afford some nice things because i get the income boosts, directly connected to the cycle-time-boost. Only 30 minutes a day tho, because when i come home from work the booster just leaves and goes to work 30 minutes later.
If: A solo-roamer comes into my belt: Gosh, if the rorqual is there i MIGHT have a chance to survive, but if he brings in more BLOPS, we definitly die. All of us
-->The rorqual is now dead, i can either play 6 times as much as a ratter in order to make the same ISK or find someone else with a boost.We have a purpoise now. that thing gives boosts, but they are so low, that i STILL have to play 4 times as much as a Ratter in order to make the same isk he does. A shame, i liked mining. I liked the guys in my corp. This is not fun anymore, i'm gonna play minecraft!
If this is what you want for New players, go ahead. When i started not too long ago i loved being able to make 20m/hour while taltking on TS and learning new stuff. I would not have gotten boosts with this system, so i would have had to play the way of a Ratter in order to get where i am now. I dont know if i would have done that...
New players and Small Alliances should not be limited to very few FEASABLE options.. I know, they could mine without boosts, but come on... Take a look at the numbers and tell me again how thats not a lot worse.
This is not about me losing ore-yield. This is not about me wanting more minerals, this is about a Patch artificially disrupting a working economy; heavily in favor of big entities
Tsukino Stareine : Just read your BS post :D:D:D If ore-prices go up by 500%, so that unboost mining is on par with unboost ratting --> Dont you think i would get... lets say... another 35 accounts just to make 1 trillion isk per month? So ore prices would not stay up for long :D:D
Your Arguments contradict themselves :D:D:D:D:D
Debatable who is shitposting but here goes:
We do understand your point, much better than you do it seems.
Your hypothetical situations are completely irrelevant and only serve your own point. You speak about a solo roamer in both situations and then magically he has a blops fleet conveniently in the situation of the lone miner. The guy with the rorqual, would he be boosting for some random guys after the change? I'm going to say no.
What's that? A player has to actually make some effort to set up some infrastructure or join a Corp that has it to take full advantage of the best boosts? BLASPHEMY
I'm going to try and explain toddler level economics to you one last time:
We loves oranges, but even sometimes you can get sick of oranges so you buy enough to satisfy yourself and then stop buying oranges.
Oranges are a set price because other people also love oranges and because some people are willing to pay more for them they go up in price to match what the average person will pay for them.
Right now we have too many oranges and the orange farmers are sad because they don't get as much money per orange as they would like. This is largely due to too many people farming oranges because it's the easy thing to do and they've not really thought about anything else. The situation is further exacerbated by the big orange farmers spraying everyone's fields with fertiliser using an expensive plane because they might as well since the small orange farms are dotted around the big farms already.
New legislation is being passed telling the big orange farmers that they can no longer spray fertiliser from the air as this is causing water pollution, they have to do it another way using tractors. Now it's not so convenient to fertilise the small farms so they stop doing this.
Thing is there's TONS of small farms and only a few big farms, orange supply goes down and people start realising they can grow oranges in their back garden and sell them for decent prices on the local market. Now the smaller producers are happier because their contribution to the orange market is bigger and even if they can't get a big tractor to fertilise their fields they can feasibly do this by hand or even if they felt adventurous they could buy a horse to help.
Initially the small farms are sad because the free fertiliser is gone, however they realise that because supply was outstripping demand, orange farming was pretty poor income to begin with and only the big farms were really making good money out of it.
Some of the less dedicated farmers moved onto other things. Some made orange juice stalls since they realised oranges are so cheap that they could get a decent mark up by processing them into a different product. People began to be more innovative and think again. Eventually we will have tons of people creating products out of oranges instead of becoming the lowest common denominator in an economy. We made oranges great again
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.16 06:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
And just to respond to your final comment, this actually reinforces my argument, it doesn't contradict. If ore prices went up and then someone decides to start 35 accounts to take advantage of it, he's killing his own economy and emulating what we have now with the increased yields and driving prices down again
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.16 07:31:56 -
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No, ore prices will change. You're not measuring ore price in discrete terms of 1 veldspar = 5 isk you are measuring the effort to obtain it.
If it becomes harder to mine, the amount you get for your ore will be the same but you're most likely going to be selling less of it since it became harder to obtain. That's how economies work. A practical real life example would be fruits being more expensive or cheap depending on the season. In summer strawberries are plentiful and cheap in the UK because they grow naturally during that period. In winter they're almost double the price because they're either grown in greenhouses or imported. Simple supply and demand.
If the change meant that somehow people will get less isk for their ore and they're still mining he same amount, then we have a problem, but changing rorquals to be on grid is a global change and will apply to everyone so the entire economy will shift with it after an adjustment period.
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.16 19:45:27 -
[24] - Quote
He clearly didn't read my orange story
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.17 07:31:49 -
[25] - Quote
Balder Verdandi wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: if you don't have enough to feel safe using it use the new one they are adding. it's only a what 5% dip?
It's quite a bit more than that. The numbers have been posted already and we're talking on the order of roughly 10% to 20% loss compared to what we were previously getting. The range boost loss is a good example: Previous: 25.7km Now: 23km 25.7-23=2.7 or roughly a 10.5% loss in range. Now if this is supposed to HELP miners, and new players that want to mine, I want the devs to explain how the loss is supposed to help. The numbers and math don't lie. Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: also why are you becoming suspect fozzie even said they are not sure if combat boosts will flag you....
These are active boosts, which means you're basically "shooting" them from the new high slot boosting device. Now the way I understand this is if you shoot the boosts, it's a form of combat the way current game mechanics work, and will flag you as suspect. Even Fozzie isn't sure that you won't get flagged suspect, so that tells you: 1. This new boosting mechanic has NOT been the subject of serious thought. 2. This new boosting mechanic has NOT been prepared for testing, and has clearly NOT been tested otherwise Fozzie and the groupies would know. 3. The balance of game play using an Orca has gone from no risk/high reward to high risk/low reward. Unless the Orca gets a major update, no one will use the Orca for boosts because no one wants to lose a boost fitted Orca worth at least 1.5b ISK. In effect, CCP has done to the Orca what it's done to the Rorqual.
All this speculation no facts
He said that they're not sure if they want it to yet which means it could be implemented that way but it also might not.
I love your arbitrary descriptions too, instead of using bland words like low high and medium, let's have some numbers?
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.17 07:33:27 -
[26] - Quote
Laurens Punani wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:yet people already use boost fit orcas in belts -.-
and by "not sure" its not they don't know how the server will treat it but that they are not sure if they are going to make it so you go suspect.
they do... in HIGH SEC which is only a small part of all mining ops. In Low- or Nullsec, people dont field them .(partly because there is no point right now...) But Balder Verdandi in not completly right... in Sov-Null and Highsec people are gonna field Rorquals and Orcas. It's just not feasable to do it in Lowsec or NRDS space or ANYWHERE you are not completly sure you are safe or can be safed. as i said earlier (it must have been 10 pages ago :D ) if there was no need to siege the rorqual, people might be able to safe it and therefore field it. (if they dont watch the intel or dont warp off if a WH pops up you can still kill them tho) (same goes fot the orca... thats why i said Balder is not right ;) ) - T2 Industrial Core (while active) +30% bonus to Mining Foreman Burst strength combine that with 15% overall bonus from skills and people being boosted by a porpoise might have to mine significantly longer than rorqual boosted people, who will ALSO be able to mine more ore due to Mining-Fighters --> More work for less minerals. a great way to promote the industrial part of the game for new players :D Well Played CCP :D
As I've tried to explain to you multiple times already, more work for less minerals means prices go up. People pay for the effort required to mine the minerals, not the actual mineral itself.
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.17 12:36:47 -
[27] - Quote
No, they get the SAME minerals for MORE work
Solo miners get LESS minerals for the SAME work
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.17 18:21:36 -
[28] - Quote
Laurens Punani wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:No, they get the SAME minerals for MORE work
Solo miners get LESS minerals for the SAME work They dont siege rorquals --> LESS minerals I siege a rorqual --> More minerals --> Lowsec and NRDS get less money for more work solo miners dont get any boosts --> Almost no minerals for the same amount of work. get your facts right son
how is the current 97% yield bonus from a sieged rorqual LESS than the maximum proposed boost of 57% ???
Like do you know what you're talking about, AT ALL?
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.17 19:06:18 -
[29] - Quote
I was under the impression that the table CCP provided were theoretical maximums with everything taken into account including T2 core stats
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.17 20:44:21 -
[30] - Quote
it doesn't change the fact that this boost will be used by far fewer people due to the risk averse nature of miners
less ore overall, higher prices for the little guy who likely never had these boosts in the first place
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.17 21:27:59 -
[31] - Quote
I was wrong about boosts being lower after this change yes.
However you're still blind to the fact that sov null miners do not account for as much mining you think it does. Vast majority of minerals that get on the market comes from high sec. Unless you're trying to tell me they haul ore to jita and not sell it locally?
The standard of mining yield currently is that you find some free boosts and go mine with them, this has artificially deflated mineral prices for years because there's just such a vast quantity that demand can't keep up with supply.
For the life of me I don't understand why people wouldn't move to better sources of income, but instead just complain about everything that makes mining difficult like gankers and now this new boosting mechanic.
Now that only dedicated mining ops will be mass harvesting minerals and the rest of the people won't be getting as much, it should in theory raise the ISK/unit of ore up. This won't change the income much for those who just sit in high sec mining alone and relied on neutral boosts previously but for those who have some ambition and drive it could propel them into a new level.
And trust me not even the biggest alliances are safe, if and when rorquals come on grid, you'll be damn sure I'll be hunting them. More explosions more mineral demand, overall healthier economy.
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.18 18:26:26 -
[32] - Quote
It's a direct nerf yes but people can't see the big picture. Overall this will help the game imo.
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.18 23:34:51 -
[33] - Quote
Lord Mudeki wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:It's a direct nerf yes but people can't see the big picture. Overall this will help the game imo. No it wont, all its going to do is cause a lot of people to unsub accounts, rorquals will either possibly be sold en masse there by dropping the price and/or not used anymore, as far as pvp goes I think its a good idea but for mining I don't think its a good idea at all or even well thought out pertaining to mining and the rorqual, to me this change is totally for pvp and not for mining, they are just throwing it in there so pvpers can have more easy targets. To be honest as Ive seen several posts saying the same thing and I agree with it, if this is supposed to be a pvp pew pew game only then get rid of everything else, if I wasn't supposed to do only industry related stuff then get rid of it all and make it so where you can only pvp, then we wont have to worry about so called "carebears" because pretty much 50% or more people in the game would leave/unsub their accounts and you would be left with nothing but pvpers but then again at that point the game would probably not be profitable anymore.
"a lot of people" an arbitrary number that nor you or I will know. You think it's 50% of the people, I predict that less than 1% will unsub because of this change. First because they probably just won't care and secondly are not dumb enough to.
I doubt a significant amount of people will leave because of this and even if they did it's idiotic because they cannot see the overall good this can do to the economy.
So what if people sell their rorquals, less minerals, higher prices again.
If you're so short sighted that you think this is for "pvpers to have more targets" then I don't know what else to say for you.
@Malcanis
I did the math, it is indeed going to be a 133% yield increase, up from 97% we currently have.
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.20 20:51:41 -
[34] - Quote
Laurens Punani wrote:
the thing is, most industrialists are under the impression that 90% or the minerals are mined by 1% of the undustrialists ;) I personally know people who mine more than 250b worth of ore per month... if 99% of the industrialists unsub their accounts, the prices will still not change that much...
my impression might be wrong tho. it might only be 80% of the minerals...
"under the impression" being the key phrase here.
Any proof of this? Cause I seriously doubt that the small minority that do mine that much account for that much of the total amount.
Take a look at August's monthly economic report : http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70511/1/3_mining.value.by.region.png
There's no way that 1% of EVE's industrialists can continue to supply that many minerals. Not even close. I would say the total wealth mined by the 1% will be less than 10% of total minerals mined by the community.
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Tsukino Stareine
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Posted - 2016.09.22 11:22:17 -
[35] - Quote
Laurens Punani wrote:TheSmokingHertog wrote:Laurens Punani wrote:Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:i know plenty of people mine w/o boosts all over eve let alone max boosts
as for the prices they stated citadels would be by far the most expensive intended to be used as HQs and markets
most recent prices puts the large at about 1/2 price of a fort so thats 40 billion for the fleet/cita/drilling platform than :D I bet there is noone who makes money while mining without boosts. Give me an example of how to make 40 million an hour (easyly made while ratting in a cruiser) without boosts. Maybe people mining don't need top dollar, just a way to eat away time, who says it has to compete with other game elements? yeah sure, you just want to pay 500Gé¼ a month to shoot rocks. get it. you are stupid
If you want to be as competitive as other methods then you have to put the effort in.
Again, you don't understand the concept of economics. If mining because easy or "standardised" for everyone as you want it to be, you would not get more ISK per unit of effort you put into the game, so literally your ideas will do nothing.
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